Episode Transcript

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Joseph Kasser, and welcome to this podcast where the AI team does a deep dive into some application of systems thinking.

[00:00:13] Speaker B: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another deep dive. Today we're going to be looking at systems thinking.

[00:00:19] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

[00:00:19] Speaker B: We've got a fantastic book to guide us on this journey.

[00:00:22] Speaker C: Absolutely.

[00:00:23] Speaker B: Thinking in Systems A Primer by Danella Meadows.

[00:00:27] Speaker C: It's a classic.

[00:00:28] Speaker B: It really is. And I think it's a book that everyone should read. No matter what you're interested in, whether you're running a business or just trying to understand the world around you, systems thinking offers a really powerful way to see things differently.

[00:00:43] Speaker C: It's like getting a new pair of glasses.

[00:00:44] Speaker B: Exactly. So let's dive in. First things first.

What exactly is a system?

[00:00:51] Speaker C: Well, you can think of a system as a bunch of interconnected pieces.

[00:00:54] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:00:55] Speaker C: All working together to achieve something.

[00:00:57] Speaker B: Like a coordinated team.

[00:00:59] Speaker C: Exactly. Each part plays a role, and they interact in a specific way.

[00:01:04] Speaker B: Right. So it's not just about the individual parts, but how they relate to each other and the overall goal they're working towards.

[00:01:11] Speaker A: Yeah.

[00:01:11] Speaker C: Like a car engine, for example, you've got all these different parts. Pistons, spark plugs, belts. They all have to work together in a precise way to make the car move.

[00:01:23] Speaker B: Meadows talks about elements, interconnections, and purpose. What's the key takeaway there?

[00:01:28] Speaker C: Well, she points out something really interesting.

[00:01:30] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:01:31] Speaker C: Changing the individual elements of a system often has the least impact.

[00:01:36] Speaker B: Really?

[00:01:36] Speaker C: Yeah. It's kind of counterintuitive. But think about it. A company can have employees come and go.

[00:01:43] Speaker B: Right.

[00:01:44] Speaker C: But the company itself persists as long as its structure and purpose remain intact.

[00:01:49] Speaker B: That's a good point. It's like a sports team.

[00:01:51] Speaker C: Exactly. You can substitute players, but the team's playbook and the goal of winning stay the same.

[00:01:58] Speaker B: So the interconnections and the purpose are the real game changers.

[00:02:01] Speaker C: They really are. It's like changing the rules of a game. Even with the same players, you get a completely different outcome.

[00:02:07] Speaker B: Okay, so we really need to pay attention to the relationships and goals within a system.

[00:02:11] Speaker C: Absolutely.

[00:02:12] Speaker B: Now, Meadows also talks about stocks and flows. Can you break those down for us?

[00:02:16] Speaker C: Sure. Imagine a bathtub. The amount of water in the tub is the stock.

[00:02:20] Speaker B: Got it.

[00:02:21] Speaker C: The faucet filling it up is the inflow, and the drain emptying it is the outflow.

[00:02:28] Speaker B: Okay, I'm visualizing it.

[00:02:29] Speaker C: These flows determine how the stock changes over time.

[00:02:33] Speaker B: That's a really clear analogy.

[00:02:35] Speaker C: This dynamic is everywhere, from your bank account to global population trends.

[00:02:40] Speaker B: So sometimes, instead of just Focusing on adding more. Like turning the faucet on full blast.

[00:02:45] Speaker C: Right.

[00:02:46] Speaker B: The solution might be managing what's leaving the system. Like making sure the drain isn't constantly open.

[00:02:52] Speaker C: Exactly. Meadows highlights how we often miss opportunities by only focusing on inflows.

[00:02:57] Speaker B: Hmm, that's a good point. It's a reminder to look at the whole picture.

[00:03:00] Speaker C: Definitely.

[00:03:01] Speaker B: Speaking of the whole picture, Meadows talks about feedback loops.

[00:03:04] Speaker C: Ah, yes. The heart of systems thinking.

[00:03:06] Speaker B: So what are those all about?

[00:03:08] Speaker C: Feedback loops are like a systems communication system.

[00:03:10] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:03:11] Speaker C: They create these circular cause and effect relationships. They can either maintain stability or trigger exponential change.

[00:03:18] Speaker B: Can you give me an example?

[00:03:19] Speaker C: Sure. Think of a thermostat. It regulates your home's temperature. That's a balancing feedback loop, keeping things in check.

[00:03:26] Speaker B: Ah, so the system self regulates.

[00:03:28] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:03:29] Speaker B: But what about those loops that create massive change?

[00:03:32] Speaker C: Those are the reinforcing loops. Like the spread of a viral video.

[00:03:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

[00:03:36] Speaker C: Each share leads to more views, which leads to even more shares.

[00:03:41] Speaker B: It's like a snowball effect.

[00:03:42] Speaker C: Exactly. Exponential growth.

[00:03:44] Speaker B: Now this is where things get a bit mind bending. Meadows talks about how our linear thinking often misses the mark when it comes to systems.

[00:03:52] Speaker C: Right. We tend to think A leads to B in a straight line.

But in complex systems, that's not always the case.

[00:04:01] Speaker B: Because of non linearities.

[00:04:02] Speaker C: Right? Exactly. Small changes can have disproportionate effects.

[00:04:05] Speaker B: Can you give us an example? Sure.

[00:04:07] Speaker C: Think of traffic flow.

[00:04:08] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:04:08] Speaker C: Adding just a few cars at rush hour can suddenly create a massive traffic jam.

[00:04:12] Speaker B: Oh, I've definitely experienced that tipping point. It's like the system suddenly shifts gears.

[00:04:16] Speaker C: Precisely. And this non linear behavior, it's everywhere in ecosystems, financial markets, even social dynamics.

[00:04:23] Speaker B: So failing to recognize these non linearities can lead us into trouble.

[00:04:27] Speaker C: It can.

[00:04:28] Speaker B: I know Meadows talks about these common system traps.

[00:04:31] Speaker C: Ah, yes. The pitfalls of systems thinking.

[00:04:34] Speaker B: Can you tell me more about them?

[00:04:35] Speaker C: Of course. These traps are patterns of behavior that seem logical at first, but lead to negative consequences for the whole system.

[00:04:43] Speaker B: Okay, like what?

[00:04:44] Speaker C: One classic example is the tragedy of the commons.

[00:04:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I've heard of that.

[00:04:49] Speaker C: It's when individuals act in their own self interest, depleting a shared resource.

[00:04:55] Speaker B: Can you give us a real world example?

[00:04:57] Speaker C: True. Imagine a shared pasture.

[00:04:58] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:04:59] Speaker C: Each herder adds more animals, thinking if I don't, someone else will. But eventually the pasture is overgrazed and no one can use it anymore.

[00:05:06] Speaker B: Right. It's a classic example of how individual actions can have unintended collective consequences.

[00:05:13] Speaker C: Exactly. And we see this pattern in overfishing, deforestation, even traffic congestion.

[00:05:18] Speaker B: So how do we avoid falling into this trap?

[00:05:21] Speaker C: Meadows suggests 3. Appealing to people's better nature through education, dividing up the commons through privatization, or setting limits through regulation.

[00:05:32] Speaker B: So encouraging responsibility, defining ownership, or setting rules of the game.

[00:05:37] Speaker C: Right.

[00:05:37] Speaker B: What's another one of these system traps?

[00:05:39] Speaker C: Another one is policy resistance, or fixes that fail.

[00:05:44] Speaker B: I have a feeling I'm very familiar with that one.

[00:05:46] Speaker C: It happens when we try to solve a problem by only addressing the symptoms instead of the root cause.

[00:05:52] Speaker B: Uh, like putting a band aid on a broken bone.

[00:05:55] Speaker C: Exactly. A classic example is drug enforcement.

[00:05:57] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:05:58] Speaker C: Despite intensified efforts, drugs remain widely available because the systemic issues driving demand haven't been addressed.

[00:06:06] Speaker B: Right. It's about understanding the underlying structure of the system before jumping to solutions.

[00:06:10] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:06:11] Speaker B: Okay, what's another trap we should be aware of?

[00:06:13] Speaker C: How about drift to low performance?

[00:06:15] Speaker B: Uh. Oh, that sounds a bit too familiar.

[00:06:17] Speaker C: It's when a system gradually lowers its standards, like a company where customer service declines over time.

[00:06:23] Speaker B: So it's like accepting mediocrity as the new normal.

[00:06:27] Speaker C: Yeah, it can happen slowly and subtly.

[00:06:29] Speaker B: So how do we prevent that?

[00:06:30] Speaker C: It's all about setting clear goals, maintaining robust feedback mechanisms, and fostering a culture of continuous improvement.

[00:06:38] Speaker B: Okay, we've talked about tragedy, the commons, fixes that fail and drift to low performance.

What's next?

[00:06:46] Speaker C: Well, we've got escalation.

[00:06:47] Speaker B: Escalation?

[00:06:48] Speaker C: Yeah, like an arms race.

[00:06:49] Speaker B: Oh, okay.

[00:06:50] Speaker C: One country builds more weapons, so the other feels compelled to do the same. It creates this dangerous spiral.

[00:06:57] Speaker B: Right, so it doesn't just apply to international relations.

[00:06:59] Speaker C: No, not at all. It can happen in business with price wars or even political campaigns that descend into mudslinging.

[00:07:07] Speaker B: So what fuels this escalation?

[00:07:09] Speaker C: It's often fear, mistrust, and a desire to maintain a competitive edge.

[00:07:15] Speaker B: It's like no one wants to back down.

[00:07:16] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:07:17] Speaker B: So how do we de escalate?

[00:07:18] Speaker C: The best way is to avoid getting caught in the trap in the first place.

[00:07:21] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:07:21] Speaker C: Build trust, communicate openly. Focus on shared goals. Shift from win lose to win win.

[00:07:28] Speaker B: Right. It's about recognizing that cooperation can be more beneficial.

[00:07:32] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:07:33] Speaker B: But what if you're already in that spiral?

[00:07:35] Speaker C: Sometimes it takes a bold move, like unilateral disarmament or bringing in a mediator.

[00:07:41] Speaker B: Okay, so taking a step back to move forward.

[00:07:44] Speaker C: Right.

[00:07:44] Speaker B: What's the next trap?

[00:07:45] Speaker C: Let's talk about success to the successful.

[00:07:47] Speaker B: Okay, what's that one all about?

[00:07:49] Speaker C: It's when a system rewards those who are already winning, creating a reinforcing feedback loop that leads to inequality.

[00:07:57] Speaker B: Ah, so the rich get richer and the Poor get poorer.

[00:08:01] Speaker C: In a nutshell, yes.

[00:08:02] Speaker B: Can you give an example?

[00:08:03] Speaker C: Imagine a school system where funding is based on test scores.

[00:08:08] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:08:09] Speaker C: Schools in wealthy areas with better resources tend to perform better and get more funding.

[00:08:15] Speaker B: So it perpetuates the advantage.

[00:08:17] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:08:17] Speaker B: This trap seems like it could have huge social consequences.

[00:08:21] Speaker C: It certainly can.

[00:08:22] Speaker B: How do we break this cycle?

[00:08:23] Speaker C: Meadows suggests things like progressive taxation, social safety nets, and policies that promote equal opportunities.

[00:08:30] Speaker B: Okay, so leveling the playing field.

[00:08:32] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:08:33] Speaker B: What's the last trap?

[00:08:34] Speaker C: The last one is shifting the burden to the intervener.

[00:08:36] Speaker B: Okay, explain that one.

[00:08:38] Speaker C: It happens when we rely on a quick fix that ultimately weakens the system in the long run.

[00:08:43] Speaker B: Like using pain medication for chronic back pain.

[00:08:46] Speaker C: Exactly. It provides temporary relief, but masks the underlying problem.

[00:08:51] Speaker B: So it's like giving someone a crutch instead of helping them heal.

[00:08:55] Speaker C: Precisely. This system becomes dependent on the intervention.

[00:08:59] Speaker B: So how do we avoid that?

[00:09:00] Speaker C: We need to focus on solutions that strengthen the system's own resilience.

[00:09:05] Speaker B: Okay, so empowering this system to solve its own problems.

[00:09:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Sometimes the best intervention is no intervention.

[00:09:11] Speaker B: Wow. That's an important reminder. Sometimes we need to let the system find its own balance.

[00:09:16] Speaker C: Exactly. And this brings us to leverage points.

[00:09:19] Speaker B: Ooh, I've been waiting for this. Tell me about them.

[00:09:22] Speaker C: Leverage points are places in a system where a small change can have a big impact.

[00:09:27] Speaker B: Like pressure points.

[00:09:28] Speaker C: Exactly. Meadows calls them places to intervene in a system.

[00:09:31] Speaker B: Okay, can you give me an example?

[00:09:33] Speaker C: Imagine a city struggling with traffic. Instead of building more roads, what if they improve public transportation?

[00:09:39] Speaker B: So you're changing the system itself?

[00:09:41] Speaker C: Exactly. Meadows actually gives us a whole list of leverage points ranked in order of effectiveness.

[00:09:47] Speaker B: Awesome. And she says the most effective ones are often the least obvious.

[00:09:53] Speaker C: She does?

[00:09:54] Speaker B: Okay, I'm ready to hear about them. What's the first one on the list?

[00:09:56] Speaker C: At the bottom of the list are things like subsidies and taxes.

[00:10:00] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:10:00] Speaker C: Meadow says those have the least leverage.

[00:10:03] Speaker B: So tweaking numbers.

[00:10:04] Speaker C: Right. Like adjusting a subsidy by a small percentage.

[00:10:08] Speaker B: I can see how that might not change much.

[00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like trying to fine tune a recipe by slightly changing the amount of salt.

[00:10:15] Speaker B: Right. It might make a subtle difference, but it won't fundamentally change the dish.

[00:10:19] Speaker C: Exactly. And these kinds of tweaks are easily reversed.

[00:10:23] Speaker B: Okay, so what's the next level up?

[00:10:25] Speaker C: Next up are buffers. Buffers, like a reservoir that protects against drought.

[00:10:30] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:10:30] Speaker C: Increasing the size of the buffer can help, but if the underlying problem is water consumption.

[00:10:35] Speaker B: Right.

[00:10:36] Speaker C: A bigger reservoir is just a temporary fix.

[00:10:39] Speaker B: Ah, so it's like putting a bigger band Aid on a broken bone.

[00:10:41] Speaker C: That's a good analogy. What's next? The next level up is changing the structure of stocks and flows.

[00:10:48] Speaker B: Okay, so more structural changes.

[00:10:50] Speaker C: Right. Like redesigning a city's transportation system to reduce congestion.

[00:10:54] Speaker B: Or maybe rethinking a manufacturing process to minimize waste.

[00:10:58] Speaker C: Exactly. It's more fundamental than just tweaking numbers.

[00:11:01] Speaker B: Right. It's like going from tweaking a recipe to creating a whole new dish.

[00:11:06] Speaker C: Exactly. But it can also be more challenging.

[00:11:09] Speaker B: Okay, what's next on the leverage point ladder?

[00:11:11] Speaker C: Next up is adjusting delays.

[00:11:14] Speaker B: Delays?

[00:11:15] Speaker C: Those time lags between action and effect.

[00:11:17] Speaker B: Right. We talked about how those can cause awesome oscillations and unintended consequences.

[00:11:22] Speaker C: Exactly. But we can actually use this knowledge to our advantage.

[00:11:26] Speaker B: How so?

[00:11:26] Speaker C: By recognizing the impact of delays, we can design systems that are more responsive and resilient.

[00:11:32] Speaker B: Can you give us an example?

[00:11:34] Speaker C: Imagine shortening the feedback loop between customer feedback and product development.

[00:11:38] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.

[00:11:39] Speaker C: That can lead to faster innovation and greater customer satisfaction.

[00:11:43] Speaker B: So it's like speeding up communication within the system. What's the next level of leverage?

[00:11:48] Speaker C: Next up are feedback loops.

[00:11:50] Speaker B: Okay. We talked about balancing and reinforcing loops.

[00:11:53] Speaker C: Right. This leverage point is about strengthening or weakening those loops.

[00:11:58] Speaker B: So fine tuning the thermostat, so to speak.

[00:12:01] Speaker C: Exactly. Making the system more responsive to deviations from the desired state.

[00:12:06] Speaker B: And this can apply to all sorts of systems?

[00:12:08] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. From regulating body temperature to managing financial markets.

[00:12:13] Speaker B: Okay, so what about reinforcing loops? Can we leverage those too?

[00:12:16] Speaker C: We can. The next leverage point is adjusting the strength of those loops.

[00:12:21] Speaker B: Okay. Those are the loops that can create those virtuous or vicious cycles.

[00:12:26] Speaker C: Exactly. Like the viral video example.

[00:12:27] Speaker B: Right. So how do we use this for good?

[00:12:29] Speaker C: It's about understanding what's driving growth or decline and then finding ways to either amplify the positive or dampen the negative.

[00:12:38] Speaker B: Can you give me an example?

[00:12:39] Speaker C: Sure. Think about the movement to promote renewable energy.

[00:12:42] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:12:42] Speaker C: By creating incentives for clean energy, we can tap into a reinforcing loop that accelerates the transition away from fossil fuels.

[00:12:51] Speaker B: So it's like harnessing the power of compounding for good.

[00:12:54] Speaker C: Precisely. Small changes in reinforcing loops can have huge long term impacts.

[00:12:59] Speaker B: That's amazing. What's next on Meadows list?

[00:13:02] Speaker C: Next is changing information flows.

[00:13:04] Speaker B: Information flows?

[00:13:05] Speaker C: Right. It's about who has access to information and how that information is shared within a system.

[00:13:11] Speaker B: Information is power. They say it is.

[00:13:13] Speaker C: Imagine a company where only top management has all the data. That can create a disconnect between decision makers and those doing the work.

[00:13:22] Speaker B: Right.

[00:13:23] Speaker C: But if everyone has access to relevant information, they can make better decisions.

[00:13:27] Speaker B: So it's like democratizing information.

[00:13:30] Speaker C: Exactly. It unlocks the collective intelligence of the system.

[00:13:33] Speaker B: What's the next level of leverage?

[00:13:35] Speaker C: Now we're getting into some serious power moves.

[00:13:37] Speaker B: Okay, lay it on me.

[00:13:38] Speaker C: The next level is changing the rules of the system.

[00:13:41] Speaker B: The rules. So like rewriting the rulebook?

[00:13:43] Speaker C: Exactly. The rules define what's possible within a system. Changing them can fundamentally change behavior.

[00:13:49] Speaker B: Can you give us some examples?

[00:13:50] Speaker C: Think of laws that guarantee equal rights or policies that protect the environment.

[00:13:55] Speaker B: Right. Those are game changers.

[00:13:57] Speaker C: They are.

[00:13:57] Speaker B: What's next on the list?

[00:13:59] Speaker C: Next is self organization.

[00:14:00] Speaker B: Self organization?

[00:14:02] Speaker C: Yeah, it's about tapping into the system's ability to adapt and learn.

[00:14:05] Speaker B: So it's like recognizing that systems aren't static machines, but living breathing organisms that can evolve.

[00:14:13] Speaker C: Exactly. And it's often more effective than trying to control everything from the top down.

[00:14:18] Speaker B: Can you give me an example?

[00:14:20] Speaker C: Imagine a company that encourages experimentation and embraces diversity of thought.

[00:14:25] Speaker B: Right.

[00:14:26] Speaker C: That's a company that's tapping into self organization.

[00:14:28] Speaker B: So it's like creating fertile ground for innovation.

[00:14:30] Speaker C: Precisely.

[00:14:31] Speaker B: Okay, what's the next level of leverage?

[00:14:33] Speaker C: Now we're getting to the really powerful stuff.

[00:14:35] Speaker B: All right, I'm ready.

[00:14:35] Speaker C: The next level is changing the goals of the system.

[00:14:38] Speaker B: The goals? So like changing the system's purpose?

[00:14:41] Speaker C: Exactly. The goals drive everything.

[00:14:43] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:14:44] Speaker C: If a company's only goal is profit, it might cut corners on the environment or employee well being. But if you shift the goal to include sustainability and social responsibility, you'll see a dramatic change in behavior.

[00:15:00] Speaker B: It's like changing the destination of a journey. The whole path changes accordingly.

[00:15:05] Speaker C: Precisely.

[00:15:06] Speaker B: I'm sensing we're about to reach the top of this leverage point ladder.

[00:15:09] Speaker C: We are.

[00:15:09] Speaker B: What's the most powerful leverage point of them all?

[00:15:12] Speaker C: The most powerful leverage point is changing the paradigm.

[00:15:15] Speaker B: The paradigm. Okay, tell me more.

[00:15:17] Speaker C: A paradigm is a set of beliefs and assumptions that shape our understanding of the world.

[00:15:23] Speaker B: So it's like the lens through which we see reality.

[00:15:25] Speaker C: Exactly. Paradigms influence everything from our individual choices to the design of our social systems.

[00:15:31] Speaker B: That's incredibly powerful.

[00:15:32] Speaker C: It is. Changing a paradigm is like upgrading your operating system.

[00:15:36] Speaker B: Hmm. I like that analogy.

[00:15:37] Speaker C: It opens up a whole new world of possibilities.

[00:15:39] Speaker B: Can you give me an example of a paradigm shift?

[00:15:42] Speaker C: Sure. Think about the shift from a geocentric to a heliocentric view of the universe.

[00:15:48] Speaker B: Okay. Where the Earth was no longer considered the center.

[00:15:50] Speaker C: Exactly. It revolutionized astronomy and paved the way for countless scientific advancements.

[00:15:56] Speaker B: Wow. That's a fundamental shift. In how we see the world.

[00:15:59] Speaker C: It is.

[00:16:00] Speaker B: But I imagine changing a paradigm is no easy feat.

[00:16:03] Speaker C: It's not. It takes time and effort and often a combination of factors like scientific discoveries, social movements, and personal transformations.

[00:16:13] Speaker B: But it's the most potent leverage point.

[00:16:15] Speaker C: It is because it changes the very foundation of the system.

[00:16:18] Speaker B: So it's like changing the DNA of the system.

[00:16:20] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:16:21] Speaker B: Wow. We've explored this whole list of leverage points, from tweaking numbers to shifting paradigms. It's amazing to think that we have so much agency.

[00:16:30] Speaker C: We do.

[00:16:31] Speaker B: So where do we go from here? How do we actually use this knowledge?

[00:16:35] Speaker C: Well, Meadows gives us lots of practical advice.

[00:16:38] Speaker B: Okay, great.

[00:16:39] Speaker C: One key suggestion is to understand a system's behavior over time.

[00:16:43] Speaker B: Okay, so like becoming a historian of the system.

[00:16:46] Speaker C: Exactly. By observing long term behavior, we can glean insights into its underlying structure.

[00:16:52] Speaker B: It's like watching a movie and paying attention to the recurring themes and characters.

[00:16:56] Speaker C: Yes. It helps us understand the plot and predict how the story might unfold.

[00:17:01] Speaker B: So we become systems detectives. What else does Meadows recommend?

[00:17:05] Speaker C: She emphasizes respecting boundaries.

[00:17:08] Speaker B: Boundaries.

[00:17:08] Speaker C: We often draw boundaries around systems to make them easier to study. Okay, but in reality, there are no truly separate systems.

[00:17:16] Speaker B: Right. Everything is connected.

[00:17:18] Speaker C: Exactly. We need to be mindful of the broader context and consider the ripple effects of our actions.

[00:17:24] Speaker B: So it's like trying to understand a forest by only looking at a single tree.

[00:17:29] Speaker C: You got it.

[00:17:30] Speaker B: What else should we be doing to become better systems thinkers?

[00:17:35] Speaker C: All right, welcome back to our deep dive into thinking in systems. We've been exploring all these fascinating concepts.

[00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:17:42] Speaker C: I'm curious how we can start applying this stuff in our everyday lives.

[00:17:45] Speaker B: Well, Meadows offer some really practical advice. Okay, great.

[00:17:49] Speaker C: Let's hear it.

[00:17:50] Speaker B: One key thing she emphasizes is learning to see the world through a systems lens.

[00:17:55] Speaker C: Right. So instead of just reacting to events, we start to see them as part of a bigger picture.

[00:18:00] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like the difference between reading a headline and understanding the whole story.

[00:18:06] Speaker C: Okay, I like that. Meadows encourages us to ask questions like where did this event come from? And what are the patterns over time?

[00:18:14] Speaker B: So we're looking for the underlying structures that are driving those events.

[00:18:18] Speaker C: Exactly. And we need to remember that events are rarely caused by simple cause and effect.

[00:18:24] Speaker B: Right. It's more complex than that.

[00:18:25] Speaker C: It's like a tapestry where tugging on one thread can create ripples throughout.

[00:18:30] Speaker B: Okay, so what else can we do to put systems thinking into practice?

[00:18:34] Speaker C: Another important tip is to pay attention to stocks and flows.

[00:18:37] Speaker B: Ah, those building blocks we talked about. The nouns and verbs of systems.

[00:18:42] Speaker C: Precisely. Think of managing Your finances. You need to pay attention to your income and expenses, but also your overall savings and debt.

[00:18:51] Speaker B: Right, the flows and the stocks.

[00:18:52] Speaker C: Exactly. Understanding how they interact is crucial.

[00:18:56] Speaker B: So how can we apply this to other systems?

[00:18:59] Speaker C: Well, Meadows says we should look beyond events and focus on the underlying accumulations and rates of change.

[00:19:06] Speaker B: Can you give me an example?

[00:19:07] Speaker C: Sure. If you're trying to understand a city's housing crisis, don't just look at how many new apartments are being built. Look at the total stock of affordable housing.

[00:19:14] Speaker B: Right. So it's about getting a glass on the bigger picture.

[00:19:17] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah.

[00:19:18] Speaker C: What else? Meadows also suggests using diagrams to visualize systems.

[00:19:24] Speaker B: Ah, those spaghetti and meatball diagrams.

[00:19:27] Speaker C: Those are the ones. They're like maps that help us navigate complexity.

[00:19:31] Speaker B: Okay. So we can see the relationships between different parts and identify those feedback loops and leverage points.

[00:19:38] Speaker C: Exactly. It's like drawing a blueprint of the system so we can understand how it all works.

[00:19:43] Speaker B: See? So we're not just flying blind.

[00:19:45] Speaker C: Right. Experiment with different types of diagrams and see what works best for you.

[00:19:50] Speaker B: It's like choosing the right lens for your camera to get the best shot.

[00:19:54] Speaker C: I like that analogy.

[00:19:55] Speaker B: Okay, what else?

[00:19:56] Speaker C: Another important tip is to identify those feedback loops.

[00:19:59] Speaker B: Right. Those circular cause and effect relationships that can either stabilize or destabilize a system.

[00:20:04] Speaker C: Exactly. Look for patterns of behavior over time, like a company's profits consistently declining. That might signal a reinforcing feedback loop where declining sales lead to cost cutting, which further reduces quality and leads to even lower sales.

[00:20:21] Speaker B: So the system is trapped in a downward spiral.

[00:20:23] Speaker C: Exactly. And once you identify those loops, you can start looking for leverage points to change things.

[00:20:30] Speaker B: So we're like systems detectives.

[00:20:32] Speaker C: Precisely uncovering the hidden forces at play.

[00:20:35] Speaker B: Okay, what else does Meadows recommend?

[00:20:37] Speaker C: She encourages us to embrace uncertainty.

[00:20:39] Speaker B: Embrace uncertainty? That sounds a bit scary.

[00:20:42] Speaker C: I know. It can feel uncomfortable. But systems are complex and constantly changing. We can't predict or control everything.

[00:20:49] Speaker B: Right. It's like trying to control a river. It's going to flow where it wants to flow.

[00:20:52] Speaker C: Exactly. So Meadow suggests being more flexible and adaptive in our approach.

[00:20:58] Speaker B: So being okay with not having all the answers and being willing to adjust course as we go.

[00:21:03] Speaker C: Exactly. It's a more realistic way to approach systems.

[00:21:06] Speaker B: Okay, what else?

[00:21:07] Speaker C: Meadows also encourages us to honor and celebrate diversity.

[00:21:10] Speaker B: Diversity? How does that fit into systems thinking?

[00:21:13] Speaker C: Well, diversity is essential for resilience, creativity and adaptation.

[00:21:18] Speaker B: Okay, I can see that.

[00:21:19] Speaker C: A system with a wide range of perspectives and resources is better equipped to handle change.

[00:21:25] Speaker B: Like a rainforest, right?

[00:21:27] Speaker C: Exactly. It's teeming with life and can Withstand all sorts of disturbances because of its diversity.

[00:21:33] Speaker B: So it's like having a diversified investment portfolio.

[00:21:36] Speaker C: That's a great analogy.

[00:21:37] Speaker B: You're less vulnerable to risk when you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[00:21:41] Speaker C: Exactly. Meadows reminds us that our modern world often prioritizes efficiency and standardization.

[00:21:49] Speaker B: Right. Which can lead to less diversity.

[00:21:51] Speaker C: Exactly. We need to be mindful of that and find ways to protect and promote diversity.

[00:21:56] Speaker B: Okay, so diversity is not just a social good. It's also essential for healthy systems.

[00:22:01] Speaker C: It is.

[00:22:02] Speaker B: What other advice does Meadows have for us?

[00:22:04] Speaker C: She emphasizes focusing on the long term.

[00:22:06] Speaker B: Okay. We've talked about expanding our time horizons, but it's easier said than done. Right?

[00:22:11] Speaker C: It is. Our brains are wired to prioritize immediate rewards and threats.

[00:22:15] Speaker B: Right. It takes effort to think long term.

[00:22:17] Speaker C: It does. But so many of our problems today are the result of short term thinking.

[00:22:23] Speaker B: So it's like we're accumulating a debt that future generations will have to pay.

[00:22:28] Speaker C: Exactly. Meadows challenges us to break free from that pattern.

[00:22:32] Speaker B: Okay, so how do we do that?

[00:22:34] Speaker C: By asking ourselves, what kind of world do we want to leave behind?

[00:22:37] Speaker B: Hmm. That's a powerful question.

[00:22:39] Speaker C: It is. It helps us shift our perspective.

[00:22:42] Speaker B: Okay. What else can we do to be better systems thinkers?

[00:22:45] Speaker C: Meadows challenges us to be more mindful of unintended consequences.

[00:22:49] Speaker B: Unintended consequences. But how can we anticipate everything?

[00:22:53] Speaker C: We can't predict everything, but we can slow down our decision making.

[00:22:56] Speaker B: Okay, so take a pause.

[00:22:58] Speaker C: Exactly. Gather diverse input and try to map out potential consequences.

[00:23:03] Speaker B: So it's about being more thoughtful and deliberate.

[00:23:05] Speaker C: Exactly. What else? Experiment. Don't implement huge changes all at once.

[00:23:10] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:23:10] Speaker C: Test things out on a smaller scale first. Observe the results and adjust as you go.

[00:23:15] Speaker B: So it's a process of trial and error.

[00:23:17] Speaker C: It is. It's about learning as you go.

[00:23:19] Speaker B: What else does Meadows emphasize?

[00:23:21] Speaker C: She reminds us to locate responsibility within the system.

[00:23:24] Speaker B: Right. We talked about designing systems that provide direct feedback on the consequences of our actions.

[00:23:30] Speaker C: Exactly. When people experience the impact of their choices, they're more likely to act responsibly.

[00:23:36] Speaker B: So it's about building in those natural incentives.

[00:23:39] Speaker C: Precisely. It's a powerful way to promote positive change.

[00:23:43] Speaker B: Okay. What else should we remember?

[00:23:45] Speaker C: Stay humble. Stay a learner.

[00:23:47] Speaker B: That's good advice for life in general.

[00:23:50] Speaker C: It is. But it's especially important for systems thinkers.

[00:23:54] Speaker B: Okay. Why is that?

[00:23:55] Speaker C: Systems are always changing. We'll never have all the answers.

[00:23:57] Speaker B: Right. So we need to be open to new information and willing to adjust our thinking.

[00:24:02] Speaker C: Exactly. It's about embracing lifelong learning.

[00:24:04] Speaker B: Okay.

[00:24:05] Speaker C: What Else celebrate complexity.

[00:24:07] Speaker B: I think we've hit on that theme a few times already.

[00:24:09] Speaker C: We have, but it's worth repeating.

[00:24:10] Speaker B: Okay. Why is it so important to celebrate complexity?

[00:24:14] Speaker C: Because it's the source of so much beauty and wonder in the world.

[00:24:17] Speaker B: Right. It's what makes life interesting.

[00:24:19] Speaker C: Exactly. Instead of seeing complexity as a problem, see it as an opportunity.

[00:24:24] Speaker B: Okay. I'm starting to see things differently already.

[00:24:27] Speaker C: That's great. Meadows also challenges us to defy the disciplines.

[00:24:32] Speaker B: Defy the disciplines? What does that mean?

[00:24:34] Speaker C: It means breaking free from the silos of traditional academia and embracing a more interdisciplinary approach.

[00:24:41] Speaker B: Right. So recognizing that real world problems don't fit neatly into categories.

[00:24:46] Speaker C: Exactly. The most interesting questions often lie at the intersection of disciplines.

[00:24:51] Speaker B: So it's about drawing from multiple fields of knowledge and collaborating across boundaries.

[00:24:56] Speaker C: Precisely. Is how we get a more holistic understanding.

[00:24:58] Speaker B: Okay. What else does Meadows encourage us to do?

[00:25:01] Speaker C: She challenges us to expand the boundary of caring.

[00:25:04] Speaker B: We talked about that earlier. It's about extending our compassion to all beings and even future generations.

[00:25:09] Speaker C: Exactly. It's about recognizing our interconnectedness and making choices that benefit the whole.

[00:25:15] Speaker B: It's a beautiful vision.

[00:25:16] Speaker C: It is.

[00:25:16] Speaker B: What else does Meadows urge us to do?

[00:25:18] Speaker C: She urges us to not erode the goal of goodness.

[00:25:22] Speaker B: Okay, remind me what that means.

[00:25:24] Speaker C: It means holding on to hope even in the face of challenges, and choosing goodness even when it's hard.

[00:25:30] Speaker B: So it's about believing in the possibility of a better world and acting in ways that support that vision.

[00:25:37] Speaker C: Exactly.

[00:25:38] Speaker B: Well, this has been an incredible journey into thinking in systems. Meadow's insights are so profound and timely.

[00:25:45] Speaker C: They really are. This book is a gift.

[00:25:47] Speaker B: It is. It's given us a powerful framework for understanding complexity and creating a better future.

[00:25:52] Speaker C: And that's what makes systems thinking so hopeful.

[00:25:54] Speaker B: It reminds us that we have the power to make a difference. Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into system systems thinking.

[00:26:01] Speaker A: I hope you enjoyed today's deep dive. If you'd like to discuss any of the questions or anything that you heard in the podcast or would like the team to do a deep dive into a different topic, please join the LinkedIn group and let me know. I look forward to providing you with many more deep dives into the applications of systems thinking.

Take care.