Episode Transcript [00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Joseph Kasser, and welcome to this podcast where the AI team does a deep dive into some application of systems thinking. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Welcome to the deep dive, listeners. Today we've got quite the challenge ahead of us. We're diving into the work of Professor Joseph Eli Kasser. We've got articles, research papers, even some personal reflections. His career path was unique, starting in industry and then really shaking things up in academia in systems and software engineering education. [00:00:33] Speaker C: It is fascinating, you know, that 27 years he was in the industry before moving to academia. That's a lot of experience to bring to the classroom. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it seems like that real world perspective really shaped his approach to teaching. [00:00:45] Speaker C: Definitely. [00:00:45] Speaker B: In 1997, he started at UMUC, and he quickly saw his students were struggling to connect those textbook concepts to real world problem solving. I bet he even wrote in one of his papers there wasn't even a clear, like, defined body of knowledge for systems engineering back then. So he kind of made it his mission to change that to make engineering education more effective. And from that came some really interesting systems thinking tools, which he used not only in his own work, but also in his teaching. [00:01:13] Speaker C: And that's what we're going to dig into today, how he used those tools to bridge that gap between, you know, theory and practice. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Exactly. And one that really jumped out at me was the copycat tool. [00:01:25] Speaker C: Okay, copycat, that sounds intriguing. [00:01:27] Speaker B: Now, before you think we're condoning plagiarism here, right? It's not about blindly copying. [00:01:34] Speaker C: Of course not. [00:01:35] Speaker B: It's more about recognizing that, hey, people have solved similar problems before. We can learn a lot from them. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Makes sense. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Kasser actually compares it to lawyers using legal precedents. You know, they don't reinvent the wheel every time. [00:01:48] Speaker C: Sure, yeah. Building on what's come before. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Exactly. They look at past cases, see the logic, and then they adapt it to their current situation. And Kasser argues, engineers can do the same thing. [00:01:59] Speaker C: Okay, I see. But wouldn't you still need to consider the unique context of your own problem? Like, what worked in one situation might not be a perfect fit for another, right? [00:02:08] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. It's not about just like, mimicking blindly. It's about understanding those underlying principles, you know, and being able to adapt them to your specific circumstances. [00:02:18] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes sense. So how did Casser actually apply this copycat approach himself? [00:02:24] Speaker B: Well, he was actually tasked with creating a Master of Software Engineering degree at umuc. [00:02:30] Speaker C: Oh, wow. That's a big project. [00:02:32] Speaker B: Huge undertaking. And instead of starting from scratch, he looked at what other universities were doing. He analyzed 19 different Master of Software Engineering programs in the US internationally. He looked at their curricula, their course structures, even how they designed their final projects. [00:02:48] Speaker C: So he was gathering data, identifying patterns, I guess. Not just copying, but analyzing, evaluating different approaches. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's how he spotted common themes, gaps in existing programs. [00:02:59] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:03:00] Speaker B: It wasn't about finding the perfect program to copy, but understanding the landscape and then creating something unique and innovative for Umuch. [00:03:08] Speaker C: So using those insights to build something new. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Exactly. Now, another tool that I found really helpful was the continuum of solutions. [00:03:15] Speaker C: Okay, continuum of solutions. Tell me more. [00:03:18] Speaker B: This one challenges the idea that there's always one right answer to a problem. [00:03:22] Speaker C: Oh, I like that. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Instead of getting stuck searching for that perfect solution, which can be paralyzing. Right? [00:03:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Castor encourages us to think in terms of a range, acceptable, feature, feasible, optable. [00:03:36] Speaker C: So different levels of solutions. But how do you determine which type is appropriate for a given situation? [00:03:42] Speaker B: That's where considering context and constraints comes in. [00:03:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:46] Speaker B: You know, sometimes an acceptable solution is good enough. [00:03:48] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. Especially if you're limited by time, budget, resources. [00:03:52] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:03:53] Speaker C: Sometimes you just need something that works. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Right. It might not be the most elegant or sophisticated, but it gets the job done. And that's, again, where this idea of practicality comes in, which resonated so much with Kasser's approach to that Master of Software Engineering program. [00:04:07] Speaker C: It sounds like he was really focused on finding solutions that were actually, you know, workable. [00:04:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. He wasn't looking for the perfect program, but a feasible solution that balanced the needs of the students, the expertise of the faculty, and the demands of the industry. [00:04:21] Speaker C: So taking all those different stakeholders into account. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. Now, get ready for this one. This one's a bit counterintuitive. The don't care principle. [00:04:30] Speaker C: Don't care. Now that sounds interesting. [00:04:32] Speaker B: I know, right? But before you think we're advocating for apathy, Right? [00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:37] Speaker B: It's not about ignoring problems completely. [00:04:39] Speaker C: Okay, good. [00:04:40] Speaker B: It's more about simplifying complex situations by intentionally ignoring factors that are irrelevant to the decision at hand. [00:04:47] Speaker C: Okay, so kind of like strategically choosing what to focus on. [00:04:51] Speaker B: Exactly. If a detail won't significantly impact the outcome, no matter which option you choose, then you can categorize it as a don't care and move on. [00:04:59] Speaker C: So it's about focusing your energy on the things that truly matter, not getting bogged down in the weeds. But how do you figure out what's truly important and what you can safely ignore? [00:05:08] Speaker B: Well, Kasser gives this example of a decision matrix where two options have almost identical scores. It might Seem like an arbitrary choice. But if one option aligns better with the stakeholders wishes, even if it's a minor difference, the don't care principle would suggest choosing that option. [00:05:26] Speaker C: So acknowledging that human factors, subjective considerations, those play a role too. [00:05:31] Speaker B: They absolutely do. Especially in the real world. It's not always about the mathematically optimal solution. So when Kessler was deciding what to teach in that master of Software engineering program, he used this principle to analyze those various approaches used by other universities. He narrowed it down to three main. Functional differentiation of the body of knowledge, an all elective curriculum, and a theoretical approach focusing on mathematical logic and language. And guess what? He applied the don't care principle to choose. [00:06:02] Speaker C: So basically streamlining the decision making process. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Exactly. Sometimes the most effective approach is to simplify, simplify, simplify. [00:06:09] Speaker C: I like it. Okay, so what's next? [00:06:11] Speaker B: Now let's move on to the conceptual reference model. [00:06:13] Speaker C: All right, lay it on me. [00:06:14] Speaker B: This tool's about moving beyond just observing what's happening in a system to understanding why things are done a certain way. [00:06:20] Speaker C: Okay, so getting to that deeper level of understanding. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Exactly. He actually distinguishes between a non systems approach and a systems approach to building these models. [00:06:29] Speaker C: Okay, I'm intrigued. Tell me more about that distinction. [00:06:33] Speaker B: So the non systems approach focuses on documenting the activities that are currently being performed. It's basically capturing the as is state. [00:06:42] Speaker C: Okay, I see. Just documenting what's happening right now. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Right. But the systems approach, on the other hand, focuses on identifying the activities that should be performed to achieve the desired outcome. [00:06:52] Speaker C: So thinking about the to be state. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Exactly. It's about being proactive, forward thinking, not just describing the current reality, but envisioning a better future and figuring out how to get there. [00:07:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes sense. So it's not just about fixing what's broken, but about creating something better. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Exactly. And you can see how this played out. When Kasser was designing that Master of Software Engineering degree, he didn't just try to replicate existing programs. He started by considering the ideal outcome. A world class program that produces highly skilled graduates. [00:07:23] Speaker C: So he had that vision in mind from the start. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And then he worked backward from that vision to build the curriculum, making sure all his efforts were aligned towards achieving that ultimate goal. [00:07:32] Speaker C: Okay, so it's like having a roadmap. It guides you from where you are to where you want to be. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Exactly. And this emphasis on proactive planning really highlights Kasser's approach to problem solving in general. It wasn't just about finding quick fixes. He wanted to understand the underlying systems and create solutions that address the root causes of problems. [00:07:53] Speaker C: So thinking long term strategically. [00:07:56] Speaker B: Absolutely. And that brings us to another key aspect of Kasser's work. Teaching systems thinking itself. [00:08:02] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. Because it's not just about having the tools. It's about knowing how to use them effectively. [00:08:07] Speaker B: Right. He believed that it was crucial for engineers to be able to think holistically and systematically. [00:08:13] Speaker C: It's a skill that can be applied to so many different areas, not just engineers, engineering. [00:08:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's about seeing the connections, understanding complexity, and developing those solutions that address the root causes. Casser was all about making systems thinking practical, applicable. [00:08:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Something you can actually use in the real world. [00:08:30] Speaker B: Exactly. One of the techniques he used was actually inspired by a Rudyard Kipling poem. [00:08:35] Speaker C: Kipling the poet. Interesting. [00:08:37] Speaker B: Yes. The one that goes, I keep six honest serving men. They taught me all I knew. Their names are what and why and when and how and where and who. [00:08:46] Speaker C: Ah, yeah, I remember that one. So how did he use that in his teaching? [00:08:51] Speaker B: Well, those six simple words, they actually provide a powerful framework for understanding a situation from multiple angles. [00:08:58] Speaker C: Okay, so it's like a starting point for analysis. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Exactly. So he used those questions as a brainstorming tool to encourage his students to move beyond that superficial analysis and really dig deeper. [00:09:09] Speaker C: Okay, so asking the right questions to get to the heart of the problem. [00:09:12] Speaker B: Exactly. And speaking of asking the right questions, Kasser also believed it was crucial to consider multiple perspectives when trying to understand and solve complex problems. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Multiple perspectives. Yeah, because everyone sees things a little differently. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. And this led him to develop a framework called Holistic thinking perspectives, or HTPs for short. [00:09:33] Speaker C: HTPs. Okay, I'm intrigued. How did he define these perspectives? [00:09:36] Speaker B: He believed there are many different lenses through which we can view a problem. It's like analyzing a camera. You know, you can focus on how it's used to capture images. That's the operational perspective or the specific actions it performs. That's functional. The physical components that make it work. That's structural. Or even the history of photography and how cameras have evolved over time. That's temporal. [00:09:57] Speaker C: Wow. So many different ways to look at one object. [00:10:00] Speaker B: Exactly. And each perspective gives you a different piece of the puzzle. Casser argued that understanding all these different perspectives is essential for getting a complete picture of a complex system and for developing effective solutions. And he actually created a tool called the HTP matrix to help people systematically explore these different perspectives and generate new ideas. [00:10:23] Speaker C: A matrix. That sounds interesting. So a way to organize those different perspectives. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Exactly. And we're going to dive deeper into that. In part Two of this deep dive. [00:10:31] Speaker C: Okay, looking forward to that. But before we move on, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on how this idea of HTPS might apply to areas beyond engineering. Like, could you use this to analyze a business problem or a social issue? [00:10:45] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I think it can be incredibly valuable in any field where you're dealing with complex problems. For example, in business, you might use HTPS to analyze a competitor or develop a new product. By considering the operational, functional, structural, all these different perspectives, you gain a much deeper understanding of the situation. [00:11:05] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like seeing the forest for the trees. You get that bigger picture. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Exactly. And that's what systems thinking is all about. Understanding that interconnectedness and developing solutions that address the complexity of real world problems. [00:11:17] Speaker C: It's a powerful approach, that's for sure. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Absolutely. And on that note, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back at part two, we'll delve deeper into some of Kasser's other systems thinking tools and explore how his ideas about education continued to evolve throughout his career. [00:11:31] Speaker C: Welcome back to our deep dive into the work of Professor Kasser. Before the break, we were talking about those holistic thinking perspectives. [00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, those HTPs and how this can. [00:11:42] Speaker C: Help us understand problems from all these different angles. [00:11:44] Speaker B: It's a powerful concept. But before we jump back into that. [00:11:47] Speaker C: Okay. [00:11:48] Speaker B: There's another tool I want to talk about which I think will really resonate with our listeners. [00:11:51] Speaker C: Okay, I'm listening. [00:11:52] Speaker B: It's called the problem formulation template. [00:11:55] Speaker C: All right. Problem formulation template. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Now this is all about taking a structured approach to understanding the problem before you even start thinking about solutions. [00:12:04] Speaker C: Okay, so slowing down, analyzing the situation. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Exactly. Kasr outlines five key steps in this template. [00:12:12] Speaker C: Five steps. All right. What are they? [00:12:14] Speaker B: First, you describe the undesirable situation. What's wrong, what needs to be fixed. [00:12:19] Speaker C: Okay. So defining the problem makes sense. What's next? [00:12:23] Speaker B: Then you state your assumptions. [00:12:25] Speaker C: Assumptions, huh? [00:12:26] Speaker B: Yeah. You know those things we often take for granted without even realizing it? Right. By stating them explicitly, it helps us identify potential blind spots. [00:12:35] Speaker C: Oh, okay. So you don't accidentally base your decisions on faulty information. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Exactly. The third step is defining the future conceptual, feasible, desirable situation. [00:12:45] Speaker C: Wow, that's a mouthful. [00:12:47] Speaker B: I know, right? Just call it FCFTs for short. [00:12:50] Speaker C: FCFTs. Much easier. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So this is basically your vision of success. What would things look like if the problem were solved? [00:12:57] Speaker C: Okay, so painting a picture of that desired outcome. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Right. Helps you stay focused on the end goal throughout the process. Then step four, working backward from that Ideal future state. You identify the problem. What are those specific obstacles that need to be overcome? [00:13:12] Speaker C: Okay, so working backward to pinpoint those roadblocks. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Exactly. And finally, step five is outlining the solution. How are you going to address those obstacles and transition from that undesirable situation to that desired FC FDs five steps. [00:13:27] Speaker C: Describe, assume, define, identify, and outline. [00:13:30] Speaker B: You got it. Now, Kasser offers a really simple example to illustrate this template. Fixing a broken watch. [00:13:35] Speaker C: Okay, broken watch. I can relate to that. [00:13:38] Speaker B: Right. So the undesirable situation, his watch stopped working. His assumption, the battery's dead. And the desired outcome. Of course, he wants his watch to work again, obviously. So he works backward to get his watch working. He needs a new battery. To install a new battery, he needs to open the watch case, which requires a special tool. And of course, he needs to find replacement battery. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Simple enough when you break it down like that. But I can see how this can be really helpful for more complex problems where the solution isn't as obvious. [00:14:08] Speaker B: Exactly. And remember that big project we talked about creating the Master of Software Engineering degree? [00:14:13] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:14:14] Speaker B: He used this template for that too. [00:14:16] Speaker C: Really? So how did that work in that context? [00:14:19] Speaker B: Well, the undesirable situation was the lack of a comprehensive software engineering program at umuc. His assumption, the university had the resources and the need for such a program. And his desired outcome, that world class degree that would prepare students for successful careers. [00:14:36] Speaker C: So he started with the end in mind and worked backward. [00:14:39] Speaker B: Exactly. Breaking down this complex problem into manageable steps. Now, remember that HTP matrix we mentioned? [00:14:47] Speaker C: Yeah, the one that builds on those holistic thinking perspectives. [00:14:50] Speaker B: That's the one. So this matrix actually uses those six kipling questions, who, what, where, when, why, and how, to help you systematically explore different perspectives. [00:15:01] Speaker C: Interesting. So you combine the htps with those six questions to really dig deep. [00:15:05] Speaker B: Exactly. Casser emphasizes that this matrix is a tool for triggering ideas, not necessarily storing them. [00:15:12] Speaker C: Okay, so it's about prompting you to think broadly and creatively. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Exactly. You don't have to fill in every box. Yeah, it's more about using it as a framework to see where your thinking leads you. [00:15:23] Speaker C: I can see how that would be helpful when you're feeling stuck, you know, forcing yourself to consider those different perspectives, you might stumble upon new insights that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. You can even combine it with traditional brainstorming techniques. [00:15:34] Speaker C: Okay, how so? [00:15:36] Speaker B: Well, you could start by just getting all your ideas out on paper. Then use the HTP matrix to organize those ideas and look for patterns or connections you Might have missed. [00:15:45] Speaker C: I like that. I've actually found that using a visual tool like a matrix can be really helpful in brainstorming sessions. It helps everyone see the different perspectives and contribute their ideas in a more structured way. [00:15:56] Speaker B: I agree. I think one of the things that makes Kasr's tools so valuable is their adaptability. They're not just for engineers or academics. They can be applied in any field. [00:16:07] Speaker C: Right, because systems thinking is a universal approach. You can use it to tackle all sorts of challenges. [00:16:12] Speaker B: Exactly. Now, while we've been talking about these tools in the context of designing a degree program, I'm curious how you think they could be applied in other fields. Let's say, the business world. [00:16:23] Speaker C: Well, that problem formulation template could be incredibly helpful for strategic planning. Imagine using it to develop a new product or even to navigate a complex negotiation. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Right. Or even for personal decision making. [00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And that HTP matrix could be useful for market research or analyzing customer feedback. [00:16:41] Speaker B: So many possibilities. And then there's the don't care principle, which could be invaluable for prioritizing tasks and making decisions in a fast paced environment. [00:16:50] Speaker C: It's amazing how these seemingly simple tools can have such a wide range of applications. [00:16:55] Speaker B: It really speaks to the power of systems thinking. [00:16:58] Speaker C: It's not just about following procedures. It's about developing a mindset that allows you to see the bigger picture and. [00:17:04] Speaker B: To find solutions that actually address the root cause of the problem, not just the symptoms. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Speaking of addressing the root cause, Kasser was always looking for ways to make his teaching methods more relevant to the real world. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah, he really wanted to bridge that gap between the classroom and the workplace. [00:17:22] Speaker C: Make sure his students were prepared for those real world challenges. [00:17:25] Speaker B: Exactly. And that led him to develop this innovative approach that he called accelerated experience. [00:17:30] Speaker C: Accelerated experience. I like that. Tell me more. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Well, he recognized that experience is crucial for developing expertise. But gaining that experience can take years. [00:17:41] Speaker C: Yeah, years of trial and error. [00:17:42] Speaker B: So he was looking for ways to help people learn from the experiences of others. [00:17:46] Speaker C: It's like mentorship, but on a larger scale. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Exactly. Tapping into the collective wisdom of a group. [00:17:52] Speaker C: Okay, I see. So how did he put this into practice? [00:17:56] Speaker B: He brought together professionals from different fields and created a learning environment where they could share their real world challenges, discuss different approaches to problem solving, learn from each other's successes and failures. [00:18:09] Speaker C: Sounds like a really valuable experience. [00:18:11] Speaker B: It was. He actually developed some specific tools for this accelerated experience program. One that stands out is the compliance matrix. [00:18:19] Speaker C: Okay, compliance matrix. What's that all about? [00:18:21] Speaker B: Well, it's a structured way to evaluate a proposed solution against a set of requirements. [00:18:27] Speaker C: So like a checklist to make sure you're on track. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, Making sure you haven't overlooked any critical elements. He actually used this matrix in his own teaching. [00:18:35] Speaker C: Really? How so? [00:18:36] Speaker B: To assess how well his teaching methods were aligning with the learning outcomes of his courses. [00:18:41] Speaker C: Interesting. So like a self evaluation tool. [00:18:43] Speaker B: Exactly. Making sure his lectures, exercises, assignments, all that was actually teaching the students what they needed to know. [00:18:51] Speaker C: Okay, so it's about accountability, making sure your efforts are actually producing the desired results. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Exactly. And I think this tool could be easily adapted to other fields. Project management, for instance, to track progress against goals. Product development, to evaluate a design against user needs. [00:19:08] Speaker C: So many potential applications. [00:19:10] Speaker B: It really is a versatile tool. Now, we've explored several of Kasser's tools here. [00:19:14] Speaker C: Yeah. From the problem formulation template to the compliance matrix, we've covered a lot of ground. [00:19:19] Speaker B: But there's one that I think is so central to his approach it's worth circling back to. [00:19:24] Speaker C: Which one is that? [00:19:25] Speaker B: Those holistic thinking perspectives, those HTPs. [00:19:28] Speaker C: Ah, yes, the different lenses through which we can view a problem. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Exactly. Remember that example with the camera? [00:19:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Analyzing it from all those different angles. [00:19:36] Speaker B: You can look at it from an operational perspective. Functional, structural, generic continuum, temporal, quantitative, even scientific. [00:19:45] Speaker C: It's amazing how many different ways there are to look at a single object. [00:19:49] Speaker B: Right. It highlights how our initial perspective can be so limiting. And by consciously shifting our perspective, we can gain a much richer understanding. [00:19:58] Speaker C: It's like the saying, walk a mile in someone else's shoes. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:20:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Casser believed that embracing complexity and seeking out diverse viewpoints was key to effective problem solving. He constantly challenged his students to think critically, question assumptions, and consider all those alternative possibilities. [00:20:16] Speaker C: And that mindset is so important, especially in today's world, where we're often bombarded with information and encouraged to accept simple answers to complex problems. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Exactly. Kazor's tools and insights offer a way. [00:20:29] Speaker C: To navigate that complexity, break down problems, develop innovative solutions. [00:20:34] Speaker B: And as we move into the final part of our deep dive, I'm curious, what stood out to you the most? And how might you apply his insights to your own learning journey? [00:20:43] Speaker C: You know, as we wrap up our deep dive into Professor Kasser's work, it's amazing how relevant his ideas remain today. [00:20:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, some of his research is decades old, but it feels so current, especially in the context of education. [00:20:56] Speaker C: Yeah. That emphasis on experiential learning, collaboration, you know, like he really understood that learning isn't just about sitting in a lecture hall. Taking notes. [00:21:06] Speaker B: He really championed that idea of active learning. It's about engaging with the material, challenging yourself, actually applying what you've learned. [00:21:15] Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean, think about his accelerated experience program. You know, recognizing that experience is crucial for developing expertise, but it takes time, right? [00:21:26] Speaker B: So much time. [00:21:27] Speaker C: Yeah. So he created this program where professionals could share their experiences, learn from each other's mistakes. [00:21:33] Speaker B: Successes like fast tracking your professional development. [00:21:36] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:21:37] Speaker B: And, you know, even if we're not part of a formal program like that, we can still apply those principles in our own lives. [00:21:42] Speaker C: Right. Seek out mentors, join professional organizations, go to conferences, even just have conversations with colleagues about the challenges they're facing. [00:21:51] Speaker B: Those informal learning opportunities could be so valuable. So as we kind of bring this deep dive to a close, I'm curious, what were your biggest takeaways from Kasser's work? What resonated with you the most? [00:22:03] Speaker C: I think for me, it was that focus on holistic thinking, the interconnectedness of systems. You know, his tools, like the holistic thinking perspectives in that HTP matrix, really encourage us to move beyond our initial assumptions to consider problems from all these different angles. [00:22:20] Speaker B: I love that. [00:22:21] Speaker C: And that can lead to some really creative, effective solutions. I'm also really intrigued by that idea of accelerated experience and how we can leverage the experiences of others to, you know, boost our own understanding and growth. [00:22:33] Speaker B: I think those are great takeaways. For me, what really stuck was this idea that learning is a continuous process. It doesn't end when we finish school or get that degree or certification. [00:22:42] Speaker C: Right. It's a lifelong journey. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:22:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:44] Speaker B: And Castor's work, it provides a framework for approaching that journey with intention, with a commitment to constant improvement. [00:22:50] Speaker C: You know, he really reminds us that we're all capable of learning, growing throughout our lives. And by embracing challenges, seeking out new experiences, we can achieve so much more than we might think possible. [00:23:02] Speaker B: So as we leave you today, we encourage you to think about how you might incorporate some of Kasser's tools, his insights into your own life. How can you approach problems more holistically? How can you accelerate your own experience by learning from others? And how can you embrace that journey of lifelong learning with curiosity and a real commitment to excellence? [00:23:23] Speaker C: You know, if Professor Kasser's work has resonated with you, we'd love to hear from you. Connect with us on social media. Share your thoughts. Keep this conversation going. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Thanks for joining us on this deep dive into the work of Professor Joseph Eli Kasser. Until next time, keep exploring, keep learning, and keep pushing those boundaries of what's possible. [00:23:42] Speaker A: I hope you enjoyed today's deep dive. If you'd like to discuss any of the questions or anything that you heard in the podcast or would like the team to do a deep dive into a different topic, please join the LinkedIn group and let me know. I look forward to providing you with many more deep dives into the applications of systems thinking. Take care.